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High Sec. Ore Theives..... Aggro. Confusion.

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Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:23:00 - [1] Ok Ive been playin the game for a while and I THOUGHT I understood how the aggro worked pretty well.... Yesterday that was proved wrong. GM says they are "Not permitted" to tell me how he got kill rights on me. Maybe one of you can? Im out mining in my covetor in 0.8 space. I have my 5 mining drones helping out as well. Yes... jetcan mining... I have my cargo bay window open and the jetcan window open. I have just started, so not much in the can. I see someone warp in with his condor and check out my can. I grab what I can from the already open can and fill my cargo bay to capacity. He makes his own can and warps away. I jetison the ore in my cargo to a new can, leaving his can untouched. I swap out my miner2s with hobgoblins and continue mining. Big deal he got 200k worth of ore. He warps back in with a buddy, warp scrambles me and opens fire on me with missiles. I had not even targeted him.... Did not send my drones after him... and never touched his can. But yet... no concord. Needless to say I lost my covetor. All the GM will tell me is to be sure the can I take ore from is my own. As far as I know... there is NO WAY for an ore theif to replace my can with theirs AND have it open on my screen. I also have the stealing item warning turned on, so if I was stealing it should have warned me. So..... How did he get kill rights???
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:23:00 - [2] Ok Ive been playin the game for a while and I THOUGHT I understood how the aggro worked pretty well.... Yesterday that was proved wrong. GM says they are "Not permitted" to tell me how he got kill rights on me. Maybe one of you can? Im out mining in my covetor in 0.8 space. I have my 5 mining drones helping out as well. Yes... jetcan mining... I have my cargo bay window open and the jetcan window open. I have just started, so not much in the can. I see someone warp in with his condor and check out my can. I grab what I can from the already open can and fill my cargo bay to capacity. He makes his own can and warps away. I jetison the ore in my cargo to a new can, leaving his can untouched. I swap out my miner2s with hobgoblins and continue mining. Big deal he got 200k worth of ore. He warps back in with a buddy, warp scrambles me and opens fire on me with missiles. I had not even targeted him.... Did not send my drones after him... and never touched his can. But yet... no concord. Needless to say I lost my covetor. All the GM will tell me is to be sure the can I take ore from is my own. As far as I know... there is NO WAY for an ore theif to replace my can with theirs AND have it open on my screen. I also have the stealing item warning turned on, so if I was stealing it should have warned me. So..... How did he get kill rights???
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:33:00 - [3] Originally by: Soulita My guess is you did in fact take from the other guys can. It is a well known method to place a can next to a miner which has the same name as the miners can. As soon as the miner accidentaly opens that can (which is not his) the owner of the can gets killrights. This tactic used to be used by macrohunters to make the macro killable. If you realy did not take anything from the other guys can, then you will get your covetor replaced. Exactly... its a well known trick. My can was open from the time I started mining tho. Never closed. So unless they found a way to change ownership of the can.... The can I had open was mine.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:33:00 - [4] Originally by: Soulita My guess is you did in fact take from the other guys can. It is a well known method to place a can next to a miner which has the same name as the miners can. As soon as the miner accidentaly opens that can (which is not his) the owner of the can gets killrights. This tactic used to be used by macrohunters to make the macro killable. If you realy did not take anything from the other guys can, then you will get your covetor replaced. Exactly... its a well known trick. My can was open from the time I started mining tho. Never closed. So unless they found a way to change ownership of the can.... The can I had open was mine.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Equipment Warehouse Is it possible ... ... you put out hobgoblins. He'd already stolen from your can, so was flagged to you. He warps back in, your hobgoblins auto-aggro him. He then can attack you. Ok, stretching the realms of probability perhaps. Best option you got is to petition it for reimbursment, and perhaps petition it as a possible exploit as well if you are absolutely certain you did not aggro him. The exploit one will get looked at pretty quickly I suspect. My 2 pence ... E.W. Can drones auto attack after an event? When its rats attacking, if my drones arent out before the attack, they dont auto-engage. I have to target and tell them to engage. I did file under exploit. It was looked at quickly. Replied with ...looked at logs.... not an exploit.... cant tell u how it was done.... check can ownership.... turn on warnings... My can was already open before they warped in, and warnings are on. So Im really confused. I would never risk a 40mil ship for less than 1mil in ore.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Equipment Warehouse Is it possible ... ... you put out hobgoblins. He'd already stolen from your can, so was flagged to you. He warps back in, your hobgoblins auto-aggro him. He then can attack you. Ok, stretching the realms of probability perhaps. Best option you got is to petition it for reimbursment, and perhaps petition it as a possible exploit as well if you are absolutely certain you did not aggro him. The exploit one will get looked at pretty quickly I suspect. My 2 pence ... E.W. Can drones auto attack after an event? When its rats attacking, if my drones arent out before the attack, they dont auto-engage. I have to target and tell them to engage. I did file under exploit. It was looked at quickly. Replied with ...looked at logs.... not an exploit.... cant tell u how it was done.... check can ownership.... turn on warnings... My can was already open before they warped in, and warnings are on. So Im really confused. I would never risk a 40mil ship for less than 1mil in ore.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:40:00 - [7] Originally by: JackknifedII Did he put something into your can and when you moved it to your cargo hold would that have flagged you? Ive never tested that to see if it works but it might...who knows Can you put stuff in someone elses can? If so, how would taking from my own can be stealing? THAT seems like an exploit to me.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:40:00 - [8] Originally by: JackknifedII Did he put something into your can and when you moved it to your cargo hold would that have flagged you? Ive never tested that to see if it works but it might...who knows Can you put stuff in someone elses can? If so, how would taking from my own can be stealing? THAT seems like an exploit to me.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:44:00 - [9] Originally by: Soulita Ask the GM to check the logs. He will be able to see what happened. Yeah tried that.. he said he checked the logs... not an exploit... Also said hes not premitted to tell me how they did it.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Soulita Ask the GM to check the logs. He will be able to see what happened. Yeah tried that.. he said he checked the logs... not an exploit... Also said hes not premitted to tell me how they did it.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Jastor Morbix Originally by: JackknifedII Did he put something into your can and when you moved it to your cargo hold would that have flagged you? Ive never tested that to see if it works but it might...who knows Can you put stuff in someone elses can? If so, how would taking from my own can be stealing? THAT seems like an exploit to me. Yes, you can put stuff into someone elses can. This is how the trick of the macrohunters works. The macro accidentally puts stuff in the wrong can cause it has the same name as its own can. Also if you are in an npc corp and the attacker is as well then you will see the green corp logo on both the wrong and the right can. As I said in my first reply, I think thats what you might have done. Using this trick is not an exploit btw. U misunderstood my question. I KNOW the can that was open was mine. I never closed the can from the time it was originally launched. My question was... can the ebil person put something into MY can so when I take it out of MY can its stealing?
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Jastor Morbix Originally by: JackknifedII Did he put something into your can and when you moved it to your cargo hold would that have flagged you? Ive never tested that to see if it works but it might...who knows Can you put stuff in someone elses can? If so, how would taking from my own can be stealing? THAT seems like an exploit to me. Yes, you can put stuff into someone elses can. This is how the trick of the macrohunters works. The macro accidentally puts stuff in the wrong can cause it has the same name as its own can. Also if you are in an npc corp and the attacker is as well then you will see the green corp logo on both the wrong and the right can. As I said in my first reply, I think thats what you might have done. Using this trick is not an exploit btw. U misunderstood my question. I KNOW the can that was open was mine. I never closed the can from the time it was originally launched. My question was... can the ebil person put something into MY can so when I take it out of MY can its stealing?
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:48:00 - [13] Edited by: Jastor Morbix on 20/03/2007 16:51:31 Originally by: Jollyreaper Originally by: Jastor Morbix Originally by: Soulita Ask the GM to check the logs. He will be able to see what happened. Yeah tried that.. he said he checked the logs... not an exploit... Also said hes not premitted to tell me how they did it. So does he not know or does he know and refuses to tell you? Hmm. That sounds really bogus. Hmm.... no comment.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:48:00 - [14] Edited by: Jastor Morbix on 20/03/2007 16:51:31 Originally by: Jollyreaper Originally by: Jastor Morbix Originally by: Soulita Ask the GM to check the logs. He will be able to see what happened. Yeah tried that.. he said he checked the logs... not an exploit... Also said hes not premitted to tell me how they did it. So does he not know or does he know and refuses to tell you? Hmm. That sounds really bogus. Hmm.... no comment.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:51:00 - [15] Edited by: Jastor Morbix on 20/03/2007 16:54:59 Originally by: Gaven Blands As a high sec miner grieving ore thief yarr etc whatever, I have been longing for a simple system to cause aggression without the messy business of the miner having to do something to cause the aggression. Sadly I have been unable to find a way to do it. Are you sure he didn't get CONCORDed? If he fired illegally, and you had Drones out, your drones should have automatically aggressed him back, which means you technically defended yourself, which means you do not receive the Month Killrights usually associated with a suicide hit. If you do find out how he did it, I'd love to hear how it is done. Well... all I can say is, my ships death didnt happen quickly. It took several "vollys" of missiles. I never saw that pop up msg from concord saying he had done something illegal or whatever.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:51:00 - [16] Edited by: Jastor Morbix on 20/03/2007 16:54:59 Originally by: Gaven Blands As a high sec miner grieving ore thief yarr etc whatever, I have been longing for a simple system to cause aggression without the messy business of the miner having to do something to cause the aggression. Sadly I have been unable to find a way to do it. Are you sure he didn't get CONCORDed? If he fired illegally, and you had Drones out, your drones should have automatically aggressed him back, which means you technically defended yourself, which means you do not receive the Month Killrights usually associated with a suicide hit. If you do find out how he did it, I'd love to hear how it is done. Well... all I can say is, my ships death didnt happen quickly. It took several "vollys" of missiles. I never saw that pop up msg from concord saying he had done something illegal or whatever.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:54:00 - [17] Originally by: Moltav Dreddstar I had the same thing happen to me but I shot the ore thief down once I returned w/ my Black Bird. A few folks in local tried to reproduce the situation. We had no luck. I think if he puts out a can w/ your can's name and has popped your can, the window that you have open is HIS CAN. It is just a guess I have not tried this yet. (TQ is down to patch ATM.) I would love to understand this as well. I guess I can go troll the Pirate sites to see if i can find it tho.... Interesting..... seems like an exploit.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Moltav Dreddstar I had the same thing happen to me but I shot the ore thief down once I returned w/ my Black Bird. A few folks in local tried to reproduce the situation. We had no luck. I think if he puts out a can w/ your can's name and has popped your can, the window that you have open is HIS CAN. It is just a guess I have not tried this yet. (TQ is down to patch ATM.) I would love to understand this as well. I guess I can go troll the Pirate sites to see if i can find it tho.... Interesting..... seems like an exploit.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:57:00 - [19] Originally by: SoulitaJastor, just for your info, so this thread does not get locked - You are not allowed to discuss GM actions on the forums. Anyways, ask again or ask the petition be escalated. If this was some sort of undocumented feature I am fairly sure you will get an answer.[/quote Point taken, Please edit my reply out of ur post too?
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 16:57:00 - [20] Originally by: SoulitaJastor, just for your info, so this thread does not get locked - You are not allowed to discuss GM actions on the forums. Anyways, ask again or ask the petition be escalated. If this was some sort of undocumented feature I am fairly sure you will get an answer.[/quote Point taken, Please edit my reply out of ur post too?
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 17:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Vayron Originally by: JackknifedII Did he put something into your can and when you moved it to your cargo hold would that have flagged you? You can remove items from a can you do not own, but you can not place items inside a can you do not own. Most likely his drones auto attacked when the guy warped back and locked target. It's also very likely the attacker assumed a macro miner was flying the ship he was trying to attack. Next time you see someone steal ore, talk about it in local chat. When you see someone approaching, try to start a conversation with them. If they are hunting macro miners and you give them reassurance you aren't one they will move on. Yep, tried local and private. No reply in local and refused my private. <gotta go to work now check the thread later thanks everyone>
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 17:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Vayron Originally by: JackknifedII Did he put something into your can and when you moved it to your cargo hold would that have flagged you? You can remove items from a can you do not own, but you can not place items inside a can you do not own. Most likely his drones auto attacked when the guy warped back and locked target. It's also very likely the attacker assumed a macro miner was flying the ship he was trying to attack. Next time you see someone steal ore, talk about it in local chat. When you see someone approaching, try to start a conversation with them. If they are hunting macro miners and you give them reassurance you aren't one they will move on. Yep, tried local and private. No reply in local and refused my private. <gotta go to work now check the thread later thanks everyone>
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 18:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Sapeian Sound's to me like were not getting the full story, seems far more likely becuase the guy was in a small ship Jastor agroed back with drones, and thus got popped. thats what i think, i could be well wrong though. When the ore was stolen, I had miner drones out. They cant fight. When the theif left, I did put out hobgoblins, but I never targeted him. So unless the drones launched after the theft can auto-attack, I dont see how I agressed them. <love posting from work :P >
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 18:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Phyrr you cannot place items into another individuals can. I macrohunted for a very long time. It is not how he got you flagged. My guess is he played sleight of hand with the cargo container windows. If you even touch an item in his can without transfering you get flagged. He would have had to open his can on my screen. I never closed my can from the time I launched it. His can showed up yellow. I never opened that one.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 18:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Nye Jaran Before the ore was stolen, OP alleges that he had the Jet Can window open. OP also claims that at no time did said jet can window close. I'll guess that it can also be said that OP never opened another jet can window. So either the OP is lying or there is now a way to change jet can ownership without affecting the jet can owner's interface. Assuming that the OP is truthful and presented all of the facts (not just perceptions), then there is a bug / exploit. I know what I'll be doing when I get home from work tonight. Time to break out the test character again. Correct, the original can was open since I started mining. It was still open when I took some ore back out. It stayed open until the ore theif emptied it and it popped. There was another can created by him (yellow) which I left alone. I jetisoned the ore from my cargo into a NEW container. Then got popped. Please let me know what u find out. Im going to try some testing myself tonight.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.20 20:40:00 - [26] Just did some interesting testing... Although I couldnt replicate the situation I was in yesterday. In this test <not what happened yesterday>, when someone stole ore from me, he turned red/flashing as expected. When I targeted him, WITHOUT SHOOTING, He got aggro towards me. Just targeting... no firing... That shouldnt happen should it?
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.22 01:19:00 - [27] I got an email yesterday suggesting that if you and the ore theif are taking the same piece of ore from your jetcan at the same exact time, and it hits his can before u get it into your cargo hold, eve considers it stealing from the THEIFS can. Although you never opened the theif's can, you have stolen it from him. Anyone wanna test this one out and let me know? Although, even if its true, I wont be able to petition it...... Maybe one of you can.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.03.22 04:06:00 - [28] Originally by: Sasha Krah'n lol yes jestor...you've just been can-flagged very common, and we are very good at duplicating it :) The common one is replacing my can with yours. Then I accidently steal from your can. Im talking about never touching your can at all.
Jastor Morbix	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:15:00 - [29] Edited by: Jastor Morbix on 09/04/2007 14:12:17 Finally got my petition response... ....logs show u stole or back... blah blah blah ...can not return your ship.... So be careful out there people. Theres a exploit, but no one will look into it. /me shake head Im done with petitions.

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